WA Delegate: The 🇺🇦Rewilding🇺🇦 of Ruinenlust (elected )

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Forest contains 369 nations, the 53rd most in the world.

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The Most Rebellious Youth in Forest

World Census observers counted the number of times their car stereo was stolen from outside fast food stores to determine which nations have relatively high levels of youth-related crime.

As a region, Forest is ranked 1,133rd in the world for Most Rebellious Youth.

NationWA CategoryMotto
1.The CUP-Eladeni Isocracy of Liberal LiberalsLeft-wing Utopia“Can't we all just get along? Eladen Rep”
2.The Lovebombs you came to expect of Lompe Steen HAHAInoffensive Centrist Democracy“stroaln hvelc Vreendscapr & hvoarhedrang hvelc Freadicr”
3.The Sylvan Hivə of TurbeauxCivil Rights Lovefest“Not only doəs God play dicə, thə dicə arə loadəd.”
4.The United Mangrove Archipelago of RansiumDemocratic Socialists“Semper Virens”
5.The 🇺🇦Rewilding🇺🇦 of RuinenlustCivil Rights Lovefest“The Party at the End of the World”
6.The Intensive Care Unit of Candlewhisper ArchiveAnarchy“AI See You”
7.The Collective of UiiopCivil Rights Lovefest“Amo, amas, amat Amamus, amatis, amant”
8.The Mirage Island of ValenverioInoffensive Centrist Democracy“Bask in the chaos and seek proof of your existence.”
9.The Republic of EffazioLeft-wing Utopia“Ad maius bonum”
10.The Proud LGBTQQIA Supporters of Frieden-und FreudenlandNew York Times Democracy“It's cool to be gay!”
1234. . .3637»

Regional Poll • Shall Forest adopt the "Amendment" Amendment for the Constitution?

The Bureaudirectic Union of Jutsa wrote:The amendment text in full: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1725730

Voting opened 2 days 7 hours ago and will close . Open to WA member residents. You cannot vote as you are not logged in.

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Forest Regional Message Board

The thing is that the abortion question isn't a cosy after dinner debate between intelligent and educated people, with clever examples, trolley problems and premises P1, P2, and P3. It's about children being born into circumstances where nobody has the capacity to care for them so they grow up with few chances to do anything except repeat the same sh1tty cycle. It's about the end of dreams, careers and relationships. It's about psychological trauma, shame and bitter regret for the road not taken.

I think most people could agree that abortions are bad in the sense that it would be better if fewer of them happened. As has been said, this is best achieved through there being fewer unwanted pregnancies. The idea that the state can deal with undesirable consequences by simplistically banning them is beyond infuriating. How can you get better outcomes through the return of backstreet and DIY abortions, or by ensuring children are born unwanted into circumstances social services may later need to remove them from? By widening already yawning inequality by restricting abortion to those with the means to travel? I will never understand America, the land where owning an assault rifle requires less regulation than owning a uterus.

Banning stuff isn't taking a position in this philosophical debate, it's snuffing out the discussion. This is the process whereby, if armchair philosophicy is your thing, you decide what you'd do if it was you. Maybe later when the chips are down you even stick to it. A ban means that what you think doesn't matter.

My partner and I always felt we'd never go for an abortion and we declined the tests for fetal abnormalities on the grounds that we were going ahead either way. It wasn't a premise P1, P2, P3 kind of thing but it was a stance we felt had a certain dignity, a dignity it would have been stripped of by government compulsion. How crass it would be to presume to impose that choice on everyone.

My mother worked in a London gynaecological hospital before abortion was legalised in Britain. She always felt that after dealing with the aftermath of coathangers and bleach she had little appetite for philosophy.

So I've stayed out of the Abortion debate on here but I've seen a few points I'd like to address:

Disclaimers first! I consider myself pro-life with exceptions (rape and life of the mother). Those are my personal views. That said, if I were a politician I would probably campaign on the platform of not allowing abortion after the point of viability (somewhere around the 21st week). With all due respect, if you support killing a fetus near the end of a pregnancy, you are down right disgusting - in my view that's no difference than tossing a new born in a dumpster.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:I am confident, however, that at 24 weeks we're talking straight up murder. Babies have survived from 21 weeks, and potentially could durvive far earlier. They have a rudimentary brain far earlier too.

My current judgement, subject to evidence based review, is before 8 weeks is definitely fine. 8 to 16 weeks, there should be strong reasons and counselling to mum to make her aware of the balance of life vs choicr. After 16 weeks, unless mum will die, the imperative not to murder means abortion is unethical.

So that brings me to the point Ruinenlust brought up in regards to the "exceptions"... I think a surprisingly large number of poeple are pro-life with exceptions, at least in my community anyway. The extremes on the issue drown those in the middle out. For me, it's not so much about the woman being worth less than the fetus or vice versa. It's more about the fact that a women doesn't choose to be raped thus the pregnancy is forced. Outside of rape, a woman is not forced to have sex. As York Zionia points out, that's a choice that comes with potential consequence of pregnancy. Actions have consequences... but but but what about the 1% that get pregnant while on birth control????? Well as York Zionia illustrated with cruise ship example, odds are it wont happen but it can happen and everyone knows that.

When the life of the mother is in danger it should be her choice... I can't imagine the pain in having to make the choice...

At the end of the day, I am a realist and agree with the following points:

Uan aa Boa wrote:The thing is that the abortion question isn't a cosy after dinner debate between intelligent and educated people, with clever examples, trolley problems and premises P1, P2, and P3. It's about children being born into circumstances where nobody has the capacity to care for them so they grow up with few chances to do anything except repeat the same sh1tty cycle...

I think most people could agree that abortions are bad in the sense that it would be better if fewer of them happened. As has been said, this is best achieved through there being fewer unwanted pregnancies. The idea that the state can deal with undesirable consequences by simplistically banning them is beyond infuriating. How can you get better outcomes through the return of backstreet and DIY abortions, or by ensuring children are born unwanted into circumstances social services may later need to remove them from?

Making abortion illegal won't stop them... thus the reason if I were a politician I would only call for a ban after the point of viability.
I generally stay out of the abortion debate as I feel morally conflicted from both ends being that I fall in the middle on this issue. Morally I think abortion is wrong. I also think it is immoral to take the anti-abortion stance yet do nothing to help those kids. I see it as a lose - lose situation until society itself makes major changes.

Lastly, I would like to comment on what sparked all the debate. The US Supreme Court did not make abortion illegal. Rather they left the issue up to the states. Personally I wish this would be the case with more issues especially on the economic side of things. Smaller federal government is better. The people at the local and state level know better what they need and prefer than casting a blanket over the entire country.

I'll quick throw my bit in here, in part because I can personally relate to FV's stance on this, given it was my first and long-held standpoint until I learned more about this (and still mostly agree with), but also because some of the other points raised have definitely given me more to think about.

Forest Virginia wrote:With all due respect, if you support killing a fetus near the end of a pregnancy, you are down right disgusting - in my view that's no difference than tossing a new born in a dumpster.

This part has always been confusing to me. I certain as heck agree - for the most part, and would've agreed 100% a couple years ago with how little knowledge I have on the matter. That said, I've also been told by folks in the WA (sad source to get this from, I know), and particularly Sanctaria I believe, that really late-state abortions are not so much a guaranteed death as an early-induced birth. I still agree that's probably not right under most circumstances, but assuming the baby is not particularly likely to have major complications, and particularly if the mother's health is genuinely at stake, I could see it being a viable possibility; but realistically, it's one of those instances of "Gosh, I really don't know enough about this" and I myself haven't done enough research to even know what to think personally. Still, it seems a dad more nuanced then "baby killing ree!", though feel free to correct me otherwise. ;p

Forest Virginia wrote:Lastly, I would like to comment on what sparked all the debate. The US Supreme Court did not make abortion illegal. Rather they left the issue up to the states. Personally I wish this would be the case with more issues especially on the economic side of things. Smaller federal government is better. The people at the local and state level know better what they need and prefer than casting a blanket over the entire country.

I'm glad they technically stepped away from some states' rights, although personally I wish they would've done that with other things instead. I can appreciate protecting civil rights over state rights, and I also believe the "fed" is often surprisingly lenient when it comes to enforcing things otherwise legalized (see: marijuana). But states are an important part of our checks and balances, and the amount of blatant ignorance of our 10th amendment in many circumstances is a little worrisome if I may be frank.

I'm still a little worried about states outright banning abortions (as Texas already practically did not long before the court overruling anyway), though. One could argue that if it was that important, an individual would find a way to either visit or outright move to another state to have an abortion there. It's definitely difficult - especially if you're dirt-poor, where this is maybe the biggest problem. Just missing a paycheck, much more finding a viable time and affordable way to another state, is imaginably quite difficult (as I see Uan's touched on). And yeah, it absolutely would have a negative effect on our already rampant inequality.

Last word of note: I'd argue that states already had significant freedom to regulate abortions to a certain degree, such as within periods of time or under certain circumstances (health, rape, etc.). I frankly don't quite get where allowing states to outright ban it remotely comes in handy.

Uan aa Boa wrote:It's about children being born into circumstances where nobody has the capacity to care for them so they grow up with few chances to do anything except repeat the same sh1tty cycle. It's about the end of dreams, careers and relationships. It's about psychological trauma, shame and bitter regret for the road not taken.

Bigger point here... yeah. Not to mention we're at around the world population limit and are swiftly running out of resources and are likely heading toward a period of significant die-off as-is anyway, but that as an aside, the suffering due to a lack of resources and people willing to actually care for them (arguably related) is enough of a reason. Although, I personally wouldn't use that as a reason for an abortion past a certain period; after all, those neglected are largely still with us for a reason. (I'm ready for a contentious debate about that.)

Uan aa Boa wrote:My mother worked in a London gynaecological hospital before abortion was legalised in Britain. She always felt that after dealing with the aftermath of coathangers and bleach she had little appetite for philosophy.

*Sigh...* Yeah, that's a really depressing issue - and one where I can sadly understand why it's done. One could theoretically argue that doing it legally would encourage more abortions, but I'd argue that it largely means getting them done faster (thus less tragically) and more safely. I'd still hope that, given the relative ease of going from one state to another in the US, it wouldn't be as big of an issue as it may've been in the UK, buuuut... yeah, that might just be the largest reason why I'm a bit nervous about it being banned anywhere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Final note: While the Roe vs. Wade overruling allowed states to ban abortions, wasn't there also some... deeper implications? I've heard a little bit about it potentially having major implications about right to privacy in general, although I'm not too enlightened on the matter. Don't suppose anyone else could shed a little light on that for me?

Forest Virginia wrote:Outside of rape, a woman is not forced to have sex.

Neither is a man, and male choices have consequences too. Are many conservative states that now restrict abortion likely to enact measures that leave fathers responsible for those consequences? If not, it's going to continue to be seen as a fundamentally sexist position.

Forest Virginia wrote:Lastly, I would like to comment on what sparked all the debate. The US Supreme Court did not make abortion illegal. Rather they left the issue up to the states. Personally I wish this would be the case with more issues especially on the economic side of things. Smaller federal government is better. The people at the local and state level know better what they need and prefer than casting a blanket over the entire country.

I absolutely get that, but let's not delude ourselves that these judges on the Supreme Court are motivated by bringing power closer to the people and are coincidentally starting that project with Roe vs Wade. Sure, in economic terms localism is good. Rights are supposed to be universal, and that's why they're properly the subject of federal government and international law.

Jutsa wrote:

Final note: While the Roe vs. Wade overruling allowed states to ban abortions, wasn't there also some... deeper implications? I've heard a little bit about it potentially having major implications about right to privacy in general, although I'm not too enlightened on the matter. Don't suppose anyone else could shed a little light on that for me?

a bunch of things are based on roe, or use the same precedents as roe, such as gay marriage and legal contraception. and technically interracial marriage. It took alabama 4 days following roe's overturning to use the court's own words to work to get transgender healthcare banned.

Justice Thomas already said that they should look into the court ruling which legalized gay marriage.

Also, abortion is about healthcare, which is a federal issue, not state one.
Gun control is still up for debate whether it is state or federal issue. If it's a conservative state, it's a state right. but if you are in a liberal state, then it is federal. We know this, cuz the supreme court struck down a state law which was in place to reduce handgun ownership.

Ok, I don't talk much here but I guess I will weigh in right here. It's worth mentioning that my family is very conservative, and though I've moved on from a number of those positions (particularly the right-wing economic program), there are a few I remain sympathetic to. This is one I haven't really ever budged on. To some degree, I'm just curious with some of the distinctions in the more nuanced views here. I also don't always log onto this nation, so it's entirely possible by the time I get around to responding to any objections (and surely there will be many) I won't be able to, so I've tried to anticipate a few obvious ones. Regardless, you're obviously welcome to disagree even if I don't get around to responding.

So I'm curious what the considerations here are. Why do you think conception is too early? I think a good number of anti-abortion folks consider life to begin at conception mostly because it is a clear transformation, whereas no other strict demarcation is easily drawn, in addition to the point that even if a zygote is somewhere between "not human" and "human," it's clearly on the path towards developing into something fully human. That seems like it arguably ought to be of essentially equal consideration. In case someone thought to object about it, there is no natural progression of a sperm cell towards "full humanity" until it fertilizes an egg, so this argument does not make the claim that sperm cells are of equal value with humans.

This is, of course, mostly equivalent to Judith Jarvis Thomson's famous Violinist argument. What I'm struck by here is how this view to me seems both very cynical (most people won't save the man by sacrificing their kidney), and yet that is still esteems a freedom to do wrong against other people. I disagree with that strongly. To me, freedom is a good because it is ordered towards people choosing a good. I don't fundamentally believe in a "right to do wrong," at least when someone else is wronged, and moreover, I don't really think you can avoid that the government is normative. That doesn't mean all morality should be policed, but I think the default, arguably is that it ought to be in cases of life-and-death, and certainly if we don't think most humans are going to do the right thing and instead will let people die as a result! This is one reason why it strikes me as very libertarian (an ideology I used to hold but now strongly disagree with), in addition to the fact that it fundamentally dissolves obligations to family and community. When you bring someone into the world, I think you have an obligation to that person, at the very least, not to kill them. Or else, in the case of a cryptic pregnancy or a failed abortion where the woman ends up giving birth, would they not have obligations to their child, unwanted as the child may be? Finally, it ultimately seems to be Thrasymachian to me-- that it is somehow acceptable to let someone control another person simply because the power exists (in other words, justice is the advantage of the strong over the weak). I don't think the fact that it's her body really changes much. For whatever reason, we've evolved to bring forth new life through pregnancy. That's a natural stage of development for the human person, and to destroy the natural way that human survives is, to me, murder. The fact that the child is weak (not viable if you like, but even after viability relies on the woman to exist) if anything ought to make the law more careful.

Some of this may sound pretty strong, and I don't mean to disparage your character or imply you support most of the things here I associate the argument with. I have some serious misgivings with it, though.

Siornor wrote:Word. Word to your whole post but especially to this last line. And in America, of all places, I think being against "choice" is a vile sin.

Touched on this, but this is a red herring to me. When the question is about murder (as anti-abortion advocates will say that it is), you have to show either that it is not murder or where choice enters into it. No one supports choice to murder adults, no one supports the choice to steal and torture and rape, and I assume no one here supports the choice of corporate boards to pollute with impunity and ruin the environment to the detriment of all (especially the poor).

I would note that if you are concerned about the way sex is portrayed, social conservatives in general are not comfortable with casual sex in general, and most pro-lifers (certainly myself) support pretty robust supports for pregnant women and parents. It has been a major political disappointment that those opposed to abortion in the US have not supported such programs, but that doesn't ultimately change the morality of the issue. Anyway, I think there's something fundamentally different than doing something which biologically causes something else and being strapped up and forced to donate your kidney. I'm curious what you mean to say someone "controls their DNA," as I don't think anyone has much control over that (it's all a parental accident). But if you don't believe in objective morality, I think we're going to have a hard time communicating, unless you literally support the abolition of the state and all regulation.
I've tried to mostly avoid the sort of line-by-line debunking which can make arguments pretty tedious, but I vehemently disagree with all of this. In the first place, your first suggestion is that people in comas and people who don't speak the language don't have rights. In the second place, the point of a right to life is not that you are forced against your will to have it, but that other people can't kill you (by, say, abortion, if abortion is murder). This has very little in common with the idea that I, through my own free choice (making essentially an economic trade-off between a tiny degree of health and annoyance) not applying sunscreen which may slightly contribute to a greater risk of skin cancer which may but probably won't kill me. That's my own decision, and about something very trivial in comparison to someone else's ability to live the rest of their life at all. And it is, frankly, disgusting to hear the idea that parents "own" their children, and that violence and neglect is somehow "acceptable." That's absurd and morally repulsive. Parents have authority over their children because their children don't know better, not because bringing them into the world gives you the power to do whatever the hell you want with them. They're children, not slaves.

See, to me, far from this being a defense of discussion, this just presupposes the validity of abortion. We don't legalize murder because it sometimes still happens, or because it allows certain people who have (often at least partially valid) grievances to find emotional closure. It's important to support those who are emotionally hurt, but that isn't all there is to it. And the fact that people fail morally doesn't render their reasoned arguments any less valid.

The Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben develops this idea of a Homo sacer (accursed man or sacred man), which in Roman law was a person who was free to be killed by anyone but could not be sacrificed (as their name and life was worth nothing). Essentially, they were stripped from the protection of the law. (Also relevant is a distinction dating back to the Ancient Greeks between bios, political life, and zoe, animal life or "bare life." The homo sacer was stripped of bios and reduced to zoe.) Agamben believes, essentially, that Western societies are based on the systematic reduction of some group of people to bare life. Drawing from Foucault, he calls this "biopolitics"- political control of bare life. And between the annihilation of rights and duties to the unborn and the use of clinical terminology to refer to the "fetus," I have a very difficult time not seeing homo sacer in abortion.

To close, I don't mean to attack anyone personally, or offend anyone, but obviously I have as strong disagreements with most of you as most of you will have with me. It is an issue I feel pretty strongly about, and so you'll forgive me I hope for pressing for it rather strenuously.

Rhodevus wrote:a bunch of things are based on roe, or use the same precedents as roe, such as gay marriage and legal contraception. and technically interracial marriage. It took alabama 4 days following roe's overturning to use the court's own words to work to get transgender healthcare banned.

Justice Thomas already said that they should look into the court ruling which legalized gay marriage.

Also, abortion is about healthcare, which is a federal issue, not state one.
Gun control is still up for debate whether it is state or federal issue. If it's a conservative state, it's a state right. but if you are in a liberal state, then it is federal. We know this, cuz the supreme court struck down a state law which was in place to reduce handgun ownership.

Mmhm, I'd note that "health" is a traditional police power, which is a state issue. You can make arguments about the necessary and proper clause or whether we should really let this stop us (I basically think the Constitution's enumeration of powers at this point is pretty obsolete regardless, and I dislike the Supreme Court, which has made besides Dobbs a number of terrible decisions recently), but I would note anyway that abortion is not healthcare in this case, because the question of whether to allow it or not is about a moral argument, not an argument about the practicality of it on the level of healthcare. And morals, again... are a police power, and thus the jurisdiction of the states (again, in theory that I don't care about too much, but let's not misstate).

Sorry about double posting, but there were more responses after my last :P

Edit: One more point, I also don't think "men don't have to deal with the consequences" is a valid argument, either. The fact that some group gets away with something doesn't make it acceptable for another group. That said, I actually agree with Uan aa Boa's post to the degree that absolutely I think a fully consistent pro-life position necessitates strong protections for pregnant women and new mothers and as far as possible ought to hold men responsible for the situations they put women in.

Some rather disturbing views posted above about people having sex. Such views usually come form virgin teens or frigid middle aged/elderly women. Trust me, sex is great. Everyone should do it all the time.

IMO, the woman's right to her own body is paramount and nobody can justifiably force her to use for a purpose she does not wish to use it for.

Faurexus wrote:One more point, I also don't think "men don't have to deal with the consequences" is a valid argument, either. The fact that some group gets away with something doesn't make it acceptable for another group. That said, I actually agree with Uan aa Boa's post to the degree that absolutely I think a fully consistent pro-life position necessitates strong protections for pregnant women and new mothers and as far as possible ought to hold men responsible for the situations they put women in.

But what if women don't want to be "protected" but would prefer equality with men? In terms of making men responsible for their actions "as far as possible" how about a government agency turning up on the doorstep and saying "Here's your baby - whether you want or are able to care for is irrelevant," which (with the addition of pregnancy and childbirth) is absolutely the situation an abortion ban seeks to place mothers in.

Instead you still say

Faurexus wrote:... in the case of a cryptic pregnancy or a failed abortion where the woman ends up giving birth, would they not have obligations to their child, unwanted as the child may be?

and again the man's obligation has been mysteriously forgotten.

I obviously don't think we can escape the biological reality of the situation, but Ruinenlust nailed it a few pages back. If men got pregnant there'd be drivethrough abortions at gas stations.

Bananaistan wrote:Some rather disturbing views posted above about people having sex. Such views usually come form virgin teens or frigid middle aged/elderly women. Trust me, sex is great. Everyone should do it all the time.

As a virgin past-20 individual with the mind of both a teenager and a middle-aged/elderly woman* accompanied by unnaturally low impulses, and as your supreme overlord, I must vehemently disagree,

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